Discussion:
Removing "CMOS clock set to UTC" question
(too old to reply)
Ed Maste
2024-06-12 16:22:32 UTC
Permalink
Is this machine's CMOS clock set to UTC? If it is set to local time,
or you don't know, please choose NO here!
I've heard many reports of new users being confused by this question
when installing FreeBSD for the first time. I don't think it provides
much value; it is a minor convenience for dual-booting with Windows
but imposes a cost on everyone installing FreeBSD. It is trivial to
configure the system to use local time in the system's real-time clock
by creating /etc/wall_cmos_clock. Other operating systems do not ask,
they just default to local time (Windows) or UTC (everyone else).

I've proposed removing the question from bsdinstall in
https://reviews.freebsd.org/D45569.


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Mark Delany
2024-06-12 17:07:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Maste
Is this machine's CMOS clock set to UTC? If it is set to local time,
or you don't know, please choose NO here!
I've heard many reports of new users being confused by this question
And experienced users too!

I've been installing FBSD and various other OSes for decades and whenever I see that
question invariable:

a) I have no clue as to what the machine's CMOS clock is set to in the first instance

b) I do not want the hassle of stopping the install to gain access to some obscure BIOS
screen that might or might not give me the answer.

c) I have no clue as to the implications of answering this question one way or the
other.

d) I don't know whether it's a good idea or not to change the CMOS clock to UTC if it's
not the case. Is it?

e) I don't think I've ever seen a similar question asked by any other OS install.

At the very least the message should indicate what happens if you get the answer
wrong. Does the system fail to install, does the clock run backwards, will my dog stop
barking? What?


Mark.


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Aryeh Friedman
2024-06-12 20:44:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris
Post by Mark Delany
Post by Ed Maste
Is this machine's CMOS clock set to UTC? If it is set to local time,
or you don't know, please choose NO here!
I've heard many reports of new users being confused by this question
And experienced users too!
I've been installing FBSD and various other OSes for decades and whenever I see that
a) I have no clue as to what the machine's CMOS clock is set to in the first instance
b) I do not want the hassle of stopping the install to gain access to some
obscure BIOS
screen that might or might not give me the answer.
c) I have no clue as to the implications of answering this question one way or the
other.
d) I don't know whether it's a good idea or not to change the CMOS clock
to UTC if it's
not the case. Is it?
e) I don't think I've ever seen a similar question asked by any other OS install.
At the very least the message should indicate what happens if you get the answer
wrong. Does the system fail to install, does the clock run backwards, will my dog stop
barking? What?
"If you are unsure, or don't know the answer here. Select NO"
Seems intuitive enough.
IOW no harm done here, if you choose NO (selects localtime). :)
Personally, I don't have a strong BIAS here, except that it's always been
this
way, and I don't have to remember to set it post installation. So it seems
"convenient".
In a dual (or more) boot config it is *NOT* more convenient because
some OS's like Window$ just assume that it is set to local time and if
you set it to UTC on FreeBSD you will need to always sync on reboot
(to different OS) or be 5 hrs off (EDT/NYC).... in the 3 years of
having my machine being dual boot and even after reinstalling FreeBSD
(my primary OS) on a brand new drive (old one died) I still have this
issue... lucky FreeBSD has ntpdate at boot but Window$ doesn't....
from what I have seen Linux also does this (or at least when I run the
Linux partition under bhyve it does)
--
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Bakul Shah
2024-06-12 20:59:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aryeh Friedman
In a dual (or more) boot config it is *NOT* more convenient because
some OS's like Window$ just assume that it is set to local time and if
you set it to UTC on FreeBSD you will need to always sync on reboot
(to different OS) or be 5 hrs off (EDT/NYC).... in the 3 years of
having my machine being dual boot and even after reinstalling FreeBSD
(my primary OS) on a brand new drive (old one died) I still have this
issue... lucky FreeBSD has ntpdate at boot but Window$ doesn't....
Rather than removing this feature, perhaps the installer should say
something like "If you also run windows on this machine, or plan to,
set the CMOS clock to Local, else set it to UTC".

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Bertrand Petit
2024-06-12 21:13:37 UTC
Permalink
It is sad to see an option removed because "it confuse users". I agree
it is broken so we need to fix it: we should make the option's effect obvious
so that anyone can understand it. I porpose that in place of asking for a UTC
or local selection we query "what time is it?" instead. Two choices would be
presented as (live) timestamps, each simultaneously showing the effect of
UTC/local time CMOS setting would have later on the host's wall clock. The
task of the user is to select the option matching any external reference he
sees fit.
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Ed Maste
2024-06-12 23:26:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Delany
Post by Ed Maste
Is this machine's CMOS clock set to UTC? If it is set to local time,
or you don't know, please choose NO here!
I've heard many reports of new users being confused by this question
And experienced users too!
I've been installing FBSD and various other OSes for decades and whenever I see that
Thank you for your reply -- the points you raised exactly capture the
sort of uncertainty raised by the installer's question and highlight
why I'd like to get rid of it.
Post by Mark Delany
a) I have no clue as to what the machine's CMOS clock is set to in the first instance
Indeed, and the blame for this lies with the question. Whether the
machine's clock is currently (at the time of installation) set to UTC
is actually not all that interesting. What we really want to know is
if the user desires to have UTC in the CMOS clock.
Post by Mark Delany
b) I do not want the hassle of stopping the install to gain access to some obscure BIOS
screen that might or might not give me the answer.
Indeed, and that information isn't needed anyway.
Post by Mark Delany
c) I have no clue as to the implications of answering this question one way or the
other.
The answer to this question has one effect. If you answer NO the file
/etc/wall_cmos_clock is created, and removed if you answer YES.
adjkerntz(8) uses the presence of this file to apply a timezone offset
when reading from / writing to the real-time (CMOS) clock.
Post by Mark Delany
d) I don't know whether it's a good idea or not to change the CMOS clock to UTC if it's
not the case. Is it?
If FreeBSD is the only operating system installed on the machine UTC
is preferred but it will work either way. If you want to dual-boot
they you probably want local time which is what Windows uses by
default. When this functionality was first added to tzsetup it came
with a comment:

| You can configure your system to assume that the battery-backed CMOS
| clock is set to your local legal time rather than Universal or
| Greenwich time. When the system boots, the \`adjkerntz' program will
| examine your current time, reverse-apply the timezone correction, and
| then set the system's UTC time to the corrected value. This approach
| is NOT guaranteed to always work; in particular, if you reboot your
| system during the transition from or to summer time, the calculation
| is sometimes impossible, and wierd things may result.
|
| For this reason, we recommend that, unless you absolutely positively
| must leave your CMOS clock on local time, you set your CMOS clock to GMT.

This is decent advice. Use UTC unless you will dual-boot Windows.
Post by Mark Delany
e) I don't think I've ever seen a similar question asked by any other OS install.
I'm not aware of any other OSes asking this. From what I've seen
Windows assumes local time and every other OS assumes UTC.
Post by Mark Delany
At the very least the message should indicate what happens if you get the answer
wrong. Does the system fail to install, does the clock run backwards, will my dog stop
barking? What?
If you choose UTC and reboot into Windows and don't have a network
connection the time in Windows will be wrong. If you choose local time
the issue in the comment above can apply.


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Renato Botelho
2024-06-12 17:36:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Maste
Is this machine's CMOS clock set to UTC? If it is set to local time,
or you don't know, please choose NO here!
I've heard many reports of new users being confused by this question
when installing FreeBSD for the first time. I don't think it provides
much value; it is a minor convenience for dual-booting with Windows
but imposes a cost on everyone installing FreeBSD. It is trivial to
configure the system to use local time in the system's real-time clock
by creating /etc/wall_cmos_clock. Other operating systems do not ask,
they just default to local time (Windows) or UTC (everyone else).
I've proposed removing the question from bsdinstall in
https://reviews.freebsd.org/D45569.
+1 for this removal
--
Renato Botelho


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Constantine A. Murenin
2024-06-12 18:14:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Maste
Is this machine's CMOS clock set to UTC? If it is set to local time,
or you don't know, please choose NO here!
I've heard many reports of new users being confused by this question
when installing FreeBSD for the first time. I don't think it provides
much value; it is a minor convenience for dual-booting with Windows
but imposes a cost on everyone installing FreeBSD. It is trivial to
configure the system to use local time in the system's real-time clock
by creating /etc/wall_cmos_clock. Other operating systems do not ask,
they just default to local time (Windows) or UTC (everyone else).
I've proposed removing the question from bsdinstall in
https://reviews.freebsd.org/D45569.
Perhaps the confusion arises from the implied default being "NO"
instead of a "YES"?

In a way, the proposed patch actually both changes the default and
removes the question. Which may end up being more confusing unless
expressly advertised as such.

If the intention is to simply change the implied default, maybe that's
exactly what should be done instead? E.g., move the "don't know"
category into a "YES" suggestion.

C.


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Chris
2024-06-12 19:07:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Delany
Post by Ed Maste
Is this machine's CMOS clock set to UTC? If it is set to local time,
or you don't know, please choose NO here!
I've heard many reports of new users being confused by this question
And experienced users too!
I've been installing FBSD and various other OSes for decades and whenever I see that
a) I have no clue as to what the machine's CMOS clock is set to in the first instance
b) I do not want the hassle of stopping the install to gain access to some obscure BIOS
screen that might or might not give me the answer.
c) I have no clue as to the implications of answering this question one way or the
other.
d) I don't know whether it's a good idea or not to change the CMOS clock to UTC if it's
not the case. Is it?
e) I don't think I've ever seen a similar question asked by any other OS install.
At the very least the message should indicate what happens if you get the answer
wrong. Does the system fail to install, does the clock run backwards, will my dog stop
barking? What?
"If you are unsure, or don't know the answer here. Select NO"
Seems intuitive enough.
IOW no harm done here, if you choose NO (selects localtime). :)
Personally, I don't have a strong BIAS here, except that it's always been
this
way, and I don't have to remember to set it post installation. So it seems
"convenient".
Post by Mark Delany
Mark.
--Chris


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Steffen Nurpmeso
2024-06-12 22:27:00 UTC
Permalink
Chris wrote in
<***@bsdforge.com>:
|On 2024-06-12 13:44, Aryeh Friedman wrote:
|> On Wed, Jun 12, 2024 at 3:08 PM Chris <bsd-***@bsdforge.com> wrote:
|>> On 2024-06-12 10:07, Mark Delany wrote:
|>>> On 12Jun24, Ed Maste apparently wrote:
|>>>> Our installer asks (via tzsetup):
|>>>>
|>>>>> Is this machine's CMOS clock set to UTC? If it is set to local time,
|>>>>> or you don't know, please choose NO here!
...

.and wouldn't it be possible to show the actual computer time,
ie, interpreted / shown as UTC?
I also feel unsure each and every time. (UTC feels not natural to
me, .. but actually results in the desired behaviour.)

--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)


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Ed Maste
2024-06-12 23:42:12 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 at 17:14, Bertrand Petit
Post by Bertrand Petit
It is sad to see an option removed because "it confuse users".
It's not only that it's confusing, it's that there is not much value
in asking the question.
Post by Bertrand Petit
I agree
it is broken so we need to fix it: we should make the option's effect obvious
so that anyone can understand it. I porpose that in place of asking for a UTC
or local selection we query "what time is it?" instead. Two choices would be
presented as (live) timestamps, each simultaneously showing the effect of
UTC/local time CMOS setting would have later on the host's wall clock. The
task of the user is to select the option matching any external reference he
sees fit.
This is not the point of the question though -- once we have a
timezone selected and the answer to the UTC question the installer
prompts for the user to set the time; it doesn't really matter what it
was before.. Despite being exactly what the question asks, it isn't
really important whether the CMOS clock is currently set to UTC or
local time. What the installer needs to know is whether the user wants
the real-time CMOS clock to contain UTC or local time.


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Rodney W. Grimes
2024-06-13 13:50:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Maste
On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 at 17:14, Bertrand Petit
Post by Bertrand Petit
It is sad to see an option removed because "it confuse users".
It's not only that it's confusing, it's that there is not much value
in asking the question.
Post by Bertrand Petit
I agree
it is broken so we need to fix it: we should make the option's effect obvious
so that anyone can understand it. I porpose that in place of asking for a UTC
or local selection we query "what time is it?" instead. Two choices would be
presented as (live) timestamps, each simultaneously showing the effect of
UTC/local time CMOS setting would have later on the host's wall clock. The
task of the user is to select the option matching any external reference he
sees fit.
This is not the point of the question though -- once we have a
timezone selected and the answer to the UTC question the installer
prompts for the user to set the time; it doesn't really matter what it
was before.. Despite being exactly what the question asks, it isn't
really important whether the CMOS clock is currently set to UTC or
local time. What the installer needs to know is whether the user wants
the real-time CMOS clock to contain UTC or local time.
You could use this data to present a time based on CMOS with and without
the TZ offset and derive the correct wall_cmos_clock value.

Please try to make things better, not just less confusing.
--
Rod Grimes ***@freebsd.org


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Warner Losh
2024-06-13 13:54:47 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, Jun 13, 2024, 7:51 AM Rodney W. Grimes <
Post by Bertrand Petit
Post by Ed Maste
On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 at 17:14, Bertrand Petit
Post by Bertrand Petit
It is sad to see an option removed because "it confuse users".
It's not only that it's confusing, it's that there is not much value
in asking the question.
Post by Bertrand Petit
I agree
it is broken so we need to fix it: we should make the option's effect
obvious
Post by Ed Maste
Post by Bertrand Petit
so that anyone can understand it. I porpose that in place of asking
for a UTC
Post by Ed Maste
Post by Bertrand Petit
or local selection we query "what time is it?" instead. Two choices
would be
Post by Ed Maste
Post by Bertrand Petit
presented as (live) timestamps, each simultaneously showing the effect
of
Post by Ed Maste
Post by Bertrand Petit
UTC/local time CMOS setting would have later on the host's wall clock.
The
Post by Ed Maste
Post by Bertrand Petit
task of the user is to select the option matching any external
reference he
Post by Ed Maste
Post by Bertrand Petit
sees fit.
This is not the point of the question though -- once we have a
timezone selected and the answer to the UTC question the installer
prompts for the user to set the time; it doesn't really matter what it
was before.. Despite being exactly what the question asks, it isn't
really important whether the CMOS clock is currently set to UTC or
local time. What the installer needs to know is whether the user wants
the real-time CMOS clock to contain UTC or local time.
You could use this data to present a time based on CMOS with and without
the TZ offset and derive the correct wall_cmos_clock value.
If you ask timezone first, you could ask the use if thise times are right.
But if rtc is afu this won't help so you need a plan for that.

Warner


Please try to make things better, not just less confusing.
Post by Bertrand Petit
--
Rod Grimes
Ed Maste
2024-06-13 14:34:22 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 13 Jun 2024 at 09:50, Rodney W. Grimes
Post by Rodney W. Grimes
You could use this data to present a time based on CMOS with and without
the TZ offset and derive the correct wall_cmos_clock value.
Please try to make things better, not just less confusing.
Can you please explain how that is making this better?

First, on a brand new install the RTC may be off by several hours or
days, or may be correct but for a completely wrong timezone, perhaps
where the machine was manufactured. So then we'd have to fist pick a
timezone, then ask:

Is the current time
( ) 10:31
( ) 15:31
( ) Something else

If you pick "something else" we need to ask the user for the current
time, and then still need to ask them whether the RTC should be set to
UTC or local time.


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Steffen Nurpmeso
2024-06-13 17:01:02 UTC
Permalink
Ed Maste wrote in
<CAPyFy2DwXpM2K8-1C3Us-***@mail.gmail.com>:
|On Thu, 13 Jun 2024 at 09:50, Rodney W. Grimes
|<freebsd-***@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> wrote:
|>
|> You could use this data to present a time based on CMOS with and without
|> the TZ offset and derive the correct wall_cmos_clock value.
|>
|> Please try to make things better, not just less confusing.
|
|Can you please explain how that is making this better?
|
|First, on a brand new install the RTC may be off by several hours or
|days, or may be correct but for a completely wrong timezone, perhaps
|where the machine was manufactured. So then we'd have to fist pick a
|timezone, then ask:
|
|Is the current time
|( ) 10:31
|( ) 15:31
|( ) Something else
|
|If you pick "something else" we need to ask the user for the current
|time, and then still need to ask them whether the RTC should be set to
|UTC or local time.

I feel you have your "expert hat" of decades of programmer
knowledge on.
The thing that is plain is that the questions are too sharply
edged (i had a bad experience with "something similar" in the
network area of a NetBSD 10 install), normal users then stand in
front of a wall and shake their heads.
See for example what the Linux hwclock(8) says (once installed):

LOCAL vs UTC
Keeping the Hardware Clock in a local timescale causes inconsistent
daylight saving time results:

• If Linux is running during a daylight saving time change, the time
written to the Hardware Clock will be adjusted for the change.

• If Linux is NOT running during a daylight saving time change, the
time read from the Hardware Clock will NOT be adjusted for the
change.

The Hardware Clock on an ISA compatible system keeps only a date and

^ scratch ISA

time, it has no concept of timezone nor daylight saving. Therefore, when
hwclock is told that it is in local time, it assumes it is in the
'correct' local time and makes no adjustments to the time read from it.

Linux handles daylight saving time changes transparently only when the
Hardware Clock is kept in the UTC timescale. Doing so is made easy for
system administrators as hwclock uses local time for its output and as
the argument to the --date option.

^ Some insight, some context!!

POSIX systems, like Linux, are designed to have the System Clock operate
in the UTC timescale. The Hardware Clock’s purpose is to initialize the
System Clock, so also keeping it in UTC makes sense.

^ Uh-oh!

Linux does, however, attempt to accommodate the Hardware Clock being in
the local timescale. This is primarily for dual-booting with older
versions of MS Windows. From Windows 7 on, the RealTimeIsUniversal
registry key is supposed to be working properly so that its Hardware
Clock can be kept in UTC.

^ Ah-ha!

Now if you buy something with preinstalled Windows, it is likely
you boot it first. (I *had*, i even had to keep Windows, because
Linux kernels (4.19 and) 5.10 would at times make the Wifi
unusable, it required a boot (not in)to Windows to properly
(re)initialize the thing. (Cries to explain or document
rtw88_pci.disable_aspm=1 then were left unanswered, in addition.)
This means your clock is already set .. no?

But even if not, with an excerpt of the above, plus the time as
read from the clock, a user could be enabled to make a profound
decision (based on "current" context). imho.

Having said that i realize that the (super large) preinstalled
FreeBSD VM qcow2 images i personally use for some years (no on
bare metal currently) just work out of the box, correctly as it
seems.

Thank you.

--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)


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Rick Macklem
2024-06-12 19:46:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Maste
Is this machine's CMOS clock set to UTC? If it is set to local time,
or you don't know, please choose NO here!
I've heard many reports of new users being confused by this question
when installing FreeBSD for the first time. I don't think it provides
much value; it is a minor convenience for dual-booting with Windows
but imposes a cost on everyone installing FreeBSD. It is trivial to
configure the system to use local time in the system's real-time clock
by creating /etc/wall_cmos_clock. Other operating systems do not ask,
they just default to local time (Windows) or UTC (everyone else).
You might want to replace the question with a one sentence note describing
the above. Every time I run into it, I spend about 10min remembering the
name /etc/wall_cmos_clock.

But, yea, I also never think about whether to answer yes or no and fix in later.

rick
Post by Ed Maste
I've proposed removing the question from bsdinstall in
https://reviews.freebsd.org/D45569.
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John Hay
2024-06-13 05:42:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Maste
This is not the point of the question though -- once we have a
timezone selected and the answer to the UTC question the installer
prompts for the user to set the time; it doesn't really matter what it
was before.. Despite being exactly what the question asks, it isn't
really important whether the CMOS clock is currently set to UTC or
local time. What the installer needs to know is whether the user wants
the real-time CMOS clock to contain UTC or local time.
What about tying it to the user's choice if the whole disk should be used
for FreeBSD? If it is the only OS, use UTC, else localtime.

If the option / question should stay, it could be made clearer and made to
not sound like it is final and could not be changed later.

John
Matthew Seaman
2024-06-13 08:14:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Maste
If FreeBSD is the only operating system installed on the machine UTC
is preferred but it will work either way. If you want to dual-boot
they you probably want local time which is what Windows uses by
default.
Why not just ask if the user intends to dual boot into Windows?

Cheers,

Matthew


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Ed Maste
2024-06-13 15:09:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Constantine A. Murenin
Post by Ed Maste
Is this machine's CMOS clock set to UTC? If it is set to local time,
or you don't know, please choose NO here!
I've heard many reports of new users being confused by this question
when installing FreeBSD for the first time. I don't think it provides
much value; it is a minor convenience for dual-booting with Windows
but imposes a cost on everyone installing FreeBSD. It is trivial to
configure the system to use local time in the system's real-time clock
by creating /etc/wall_cmos_clock. Other operating systems do not ask,
they just default to local time (Windows) or UTC (everyone else).
I've proposed removing the question from bsdinstall in
https://reviews.freebsd.org/D45569.
Perhaps the confusion arises from the implied default being "NO"
instead of a "YES"?
There are several sources of confusion I think --Mark Delany's
response did a good job of highlighting them.
Post by Constantine A. Murenin
In a way, the proposed patch actually both changes the default and
removes the question. Which may end up being more confusing unless
expressly advertised as such.
The default behaviour in FreeBSD (ignoring tzsetup or bsdinstall) is
to store UTC in the RTC. Creating /etc/wall_cmos_clock configures the
system to use local time instead.

tzsetup certainly implies that answering NO is the default choice (by
recommending that choice if you don't know), which creates the file
and uses local time.
Post by Constantine A. Murenin
If the intention is to simply change the implied default, maybe that's
exactly what should be done instead? E.g., move the "don't know"
category into a "YES" suggestion.
Making it "If you don't know, choose YES" is probably better, but the
question is still troublesome. As another reply in this thread pointed
out, the user may not know what time is in the RTC during
installation, which is what is being asked but is not actually what
the installer needs to know.


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Ed Maste
2024-06-13 15:32:10 UTC
Permalink
tzsetup(8) manpage is a bit confusing.
Does `tzsetup -s` create /etc/wall_cmos_clock when it's not exist and
selected timezone is NOT UTC?
No, with -s tzsetup neither creates nor removes /etc/wall_cmos_clock.
I've created https://reviews.freebsd.org/D45576 to clarify this in
tzsetup(8) and would appreciate review.
Unfortunately, most of computers used by end-users (personal or
corporate) would running Windows. Does emulated CMOS clocks on VMware,
virtualBox and/or something else on Windows shows always UTC, or wall
CMOS clock same as host Windows?
For the last 10 years we've skipped this question when running in a VM:

commit e91afc1cda50cbcb8fffa3f52cc0f8c595a392a3
Author: Devin Teske <***@FreeBSD.org>
Date: Tue Nov 11 19:37:17 2014 +0000

Default `bsdconfig timezone' and `tzsetup' to `-s' in a VM.

Recommended by: cperciva
Reviewed by: cperciva
Relnotes: tzsetup and bsdconfig now assume that the
"hardware" clock inside a VM is set to UTC

VirtualBox has an option to indicate that the RTC stores UTC time, I
assume others do as well. There's a VirtIO RTC interface that provides
(among others) a UTC clock.


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